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mmcgrew
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Feb-22-03, 11:18 AM (CST)
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"Clark Y Airfoil"
 
   Greetings. I am a new guy. I have purchased both the CB-1 plans and the classic. I plan on using the best features of both. I am in the architectural metals business. We can laser cut, water jet cut and weld all types of shapes and material. I am considering making the wing ribs and maybe the spars from aluminum or an aluminum composite material (see www.ameripriseco.com - Reynobond). Prior to getting my plans I ran a CADD dseign for a Clark Y airfoil with a 50" chord.The CADD design appears to have more angle at the trailing edge than the drawing with the plans. Is the Hatz airfoil a true Clark Y or has it been modified? If it has been modified why? Also if any one has built their wings with aluminum components can you share your experience with me.

Thanks

Michael McGrew
mmcgrew@ameripriseco.com
Nashville TN


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  Subject     Author     Message Date     ID  
  RE: Clark Y Airfoil Hatz777 Feb-22-03 1
     RE: Clark Y Airfoil mmcgrew Feb-23-03 2
         RE: Clark Y Airfoil Patrick Flynn Feb-23-03 3
             RE: Clark Y Airfoil cb741 Feb-24-03 4
                 RE: Clark Y Airfoil Gitche Gumee Flyer Feb-24-03 5
                     RE: Clark Y Airfoil mmcgrew Feb-25-03 6
                         RE: Clark Y Airfoil Gitche Gumee Flyer Feb-25-03 7
                             RE: Clark Y Airfoil mmcgrew Feb-25-03 8

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Hatz777
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Feb-22-03, 04:49 PM (CST)
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1. "RE: Clark Y Airfoil"
In response to message #0
 
   Michael,
Well, guess what. There is more than one Clark-Y profile. I found a similar problem when researching the NACA TN's and TR's. They reference different profiles, with different pressure and moment data. I have not determined "which" Clark-Y the Hatz plans is, to be able to use the profile data from the NACA for loads analyses.

I imagine you've latched on to a different version.

Given the flight proven results of the profile in the plans, I'd disregard your CADD profile, and model the plans.

Sorry for the kink in the works.

And as for building out of aluminum, I'm sure you're about to hear from Randy Brooks.

Caasi Moore
#777


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mmcgrew
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Feb-23-03, 01:15 PM (CST)
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2. "RE: Clark Y Airfoil"
In response to message #1
 
   thank you for yor reply. I am having our CADD people plot the plan drawing into Autocad. If someone wants a dwg file let me know.

michael


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Patrick Flynn
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Feb-23-03, 04:22 PM (CST)
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3. "RE: Clark Y Airfoil"
In response to message #2
 
   Michael,

You may be seeing different profile shapes due to the type of curve your CAD person is using.

NACA didn't envision CAD programs when they created the coordinate tables for the airfoils. If they had, they would have given us the equation for the curves and not just the points. That way, every point would have been defined. Instead, they created the coordinate tables so draftsmen could lay out the points and fit a curve through them using a French Curve, spline or other drafting tool. You can almost bet that no two were ever created exactly the same.

Todays CAD tools are much more advanced. Unfortunately, most CAD users don't understand the mathematics behind the curves they are creating. Also adding to the confusion, not all CAD applications have the same name for a given mathematical definition. Long story short, you want the person to use Non-Uniform Rational B-Splines (NURBS). This will ensure two things, the curves pass through the points specified and secondly the curve will be smooth (i.e. no abrupt changes in curvature continuity).

Regards,

Patrick Flynn
Design Integration Manager
Honeywell Engines


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cb741
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Feb-24-03, 09:53 AM (CST)
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4. "RE: Clark Y Airfoil"
In response to message #3
 
   Hey, what a great discussion. The beauty of this forum is that we learn about aircraft building on so many different levels, from the most basic and practical to the most technical and mathematical! Thanks for the great question and for the great answers. Chuck Brownlow, pres., American Hatz Assn.


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Gitche Gumee Flyer
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Feb-24-03, 09:05 PM (CST)
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5. "RE: Clark Y Airfoil"
In response to message #4
 
   Hello Michael,
I found three ClarkY airfoils in the UIUC database referenced in "Airfoil Optimizer". One of them is ClarkYSM. The SM stands for smoothed (the ordinates show 11.7 percent smoothed). I plotted all three airfoils with AutoCad and this one came out very close to the plans version. There are several Clark___ airfoils in the database that are completely different than the Y and all of the Y foils are basically the same (how's that for muddying the water). The Hatz Bantam uses the smoothed version. I pressed ribs from .020, .025, and .032 6061-T6 aluminum.

Good luck with you ribs!
Mark Marino


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mmcgrew
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Feb-25-03, 07:07 AM (CST)
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6. "RE: Clark Y Airfoil"
In response to message #5
 
   Thanks Mark

I found these same airfoils in several on line data bases. I used Foilsim and plotted one that is a very good match to the CB-1 plans. I also found a very good aluminum spar at Carlson Aircraft supply. Did you increase the width of the airfoil at the front spar? I read a paper on the strength of the Kelly D wing and the author suggested an increased width at the front spar. How do you think this would work with the CB-1?

Michael
Nashville


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Gitche Gumee Flyer
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Feb-25-03, 08:29 PM (CST)
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7. "RE: Clark Y Airfoil"
In response to message #6
 
   Hello Again,

The Bantam aluminum rib is the same as the CB-1, that is, the spar positioning and spacing within the rib is the same, the 1/4" capstrip space above and below the spar is still there allowing for spar inspection. I did put a riveted doubler across the tops and bottoms of the spars similar (well OK..the same as) to a Citabria rib making the Bantam rib virtually interchangable with the CB-1 wood rib. The spar dimensions are also the same height and width but with square tops and bottoms. As far as the width of the airfoil, do you mean the width of the rib? If you're talking rib width, the answer is there are several wider ribs in various locations (ie. Butt ribs) and also different aluminum thicknesses (ie. Wing walk ribs) where necessary.

Mark Marino


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mmcgrew
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Feb-25-03, 09:39 PM (CST)
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8. "RE: Clark Y Airfoil"
In response to message #7
 
   mark
i was refering to the widith (depth) of the front spar. The CB 1 plans scale out to a widith of 5.25" at the center line. Did you maintain this or increase it with an aluminum spar

Michael


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